Pandora's Aquarium: A rose by any other name? - Pandora's Aquarium

Jump to content

Donna Mae DePola - Guest Speaker Chat ...May 25th 2013 ... for more information please read this!






Welcome to Pandora's Aquarium, a rape, sexual assault, and sexual abuse survivor message board and chat room.
If you've been a victim of any type of sexual violence, you belong here. What you see below represents just a fraction of the resources and survivor support available. Register now to join our community and take full advantage of what this online support group has to offer you as you heal and recover, or sign in to remove this message.

You are not alone, we can support you as you heal, and you've made an important step toward recovery by reaching out. If you are unable to register or have any questions, please contact the staff or view our home page.


Public Forum Notice

Please note that this is a public forum open to guests. Your username, the content of your posts, and your homepage (if applicable) will be viewable by non-registered guests. Your signature, profile, and contact info (including email and messenger screennames) will be viewable ONLY by registered members.
Formatting issues: Please note that several threads here experienced formatting changes several years ago during a board move. Posts in other forums do not have these same problems.
  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

A rose by any other name? Does it matter what we call it? *t* for real words

#16 User is offline   Kala 

  • My Hearts
  • Group: Member
  • Posts: 577
  • Joined: 19-May 02

Posted 10 June 2003 - 01:01 AM

((((Em))))))
Its late so I will probably repeat a few folks...
Naming is critical to owning our reality.  I totally agree with you Em, the hesitation and using the less charged words minimizes our experience and feelings.  Its really a shame that the crisis center doesnt share your viewpoint.
Yes, there is a time for naming and you cant force someone to accept and face the reality until they are ready.  But not speaking the real words is in a way denying permission for the person to own her/his reality.
Personally I understand this fully.  Its taken me a year to be able to say I was raped without hesitating. I still have work to do though, I can't say I was gang raped, those words still have too much power to link to my feelings and soul.  But I'll get there eventually.
Part one of this is being able to say it yourself and part two is not letting the people in your life and their inability to follow you there silence you in any way.  Our community is a crucial ingredient for being able to do this as we each come to it in our healing.  Sometimes we need the truth and sometimes we cant deal with it and that is ok.
When each of us does not censor ourselves in the world when we are comfortable internally, that slowly effects the whole, the more truth is heard the more it is heard.
Hugs, Kala

PS: I think this is a Wonderful Threads candidate...

(Edited by Kala at 3:04 am on June 10, 2003)


#17 User is offline   Louise 

  • Kicking arsenic
  • View blog
  • Group: Administrator
  • Posts: 15,507
  • Joined: 15-November 01

Posted 10 June 2003 - 02:45 AM

Hey darlings...I've just been thinking about this thread and thought I'd throw in something I wrote recently about naming before one is ready - it just represents how it was for me:

"One day, I called a friend of my mother’s, whom I’ll call Judy, to ask if her daughter, let’s call her Katie, could come and baby-sit my children for an evening. Judy didn’t think this would be a problem, and said she would drop Katie off.

A few hours later, Judy’s car pulled into the driveway, and I went out to greet her. I noted that Katie was not with her. Judy said, ‘Listen Rachel, it’s fine for Katie to mind the kids, but they’ll have to come to my place’. I asked her why, and she said, ‘well, I wouldn’t want Paul to turn up’. When I said that was unlikely to happen Judy bluntly replied, ‘well, but he raped you, didn’t he?’

I could not have been more frightened if Judy had presented a blowtorch and threatened to set me on fire. I gasped sickly; I did not answer her, but turned and fled back into my flat. I felt as if I were possessed by that word, rape, and had nowhere to put what I felt.

Years later, I understand that Judy intended no harm, and that her actions were those of a responsible mother. I am grateful for her having named what happened to me without filtering it through myths about partner-rape.

But at that time, the truth frankly hurt – I felt like I imagine somebody would feel if the elastic in their underwear snapped in public; as if my most secret and shame-filled parts had been exposed. I had no visible supports, and had not even contemplated that healing might be a possibility. At that stage my inner resources were concerned with keeping it at a distance. I was not geared to cope with the confrontational nature of Judy’s statement".

I should add that I'm tremendously glad I'm so far away from that place now. I wish there were more people like you around, because it was a few rl souls I met who were just as beautiful as you folk in here, that enabled me to know that naming would be safe, and who supported me as the implications of doing so hit me.

Thanks once again Emster, and all for this thread - naming is something that really ignites my mind.


#18 Guest__*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 16 August 2003 - 09:39 PM

Hi there,
I too think this is  a great thread.  I admit I bristled when my very helpful and nice doctor refered to my rape as my unfortunate accident.  What an odd thing to call rape.  anyway,
I thought i should bring up the point that woman on woman assault may or may not involve penetration.  Some people have difficulty "naming" it or feeling legitimate enough to seek support and help while feeling excluded from the word RAPE.
that would be my only reason for using the term sexual assault, not to soften the term, but to make it more inclusive to the people who need to be under the umbrella of compassion other survivors give each other.

I know this is topic seldom researched, and it did not happen to me personally, but i have heard of many women to whom it did.  Just a thought...

I agree with not softening the term unless the victim/survivor needs it for ptsd/rts reasons.

pixie


#19 Guest__*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 22 August 2003 - 05:01 PM

Trica,
I think there needs to be a story, maybe not the "whole" story, but three sentences, or five. 1) What happened, 2)who did it (the more I think of it the more it seems that the silence when it comes to the name of the rapist (even when the name is known) only serves the rapist. Yes, saying Bruce Williams (an example name) rather than "the rapist" gives him more humanity than you or I think he probably deserves, but it also holds him and his friends and his coworkers accountable to a least recognizing his behavior.), 3) some sort of summing up--the news he was put in jail, how you think he should be shot in the head, how he "got away" with it even. An example, since I don't think I'm being clear.
Coversation to possible lover: version 1: "I need to tell you I was raped by an old boyfriend two years ago so I'm really nervous about entering into a sexual relationship."

version 2: I need to tell you I was raped two years ago. I broke up with my old boyfriend, Bruce Williams was his name, and he came over a few weeks later and said he wanted to talk, to apologize. I let him in and he had a knife. He told me he'd kill me if I didn't have sex with him.

Version Two is harder to say, but I think it's better not only for you but the for the person hearing it. There's enough detail that I would think it's easier to ask questions, or just to feel that you know enough to respond the right way.

I think, perhaps, that I'm older than most on this list (36) and it's been my personal experience that age has given me the ability to say things I could only think when I was younger. In part I've grown proud of my ability to be a bitch. But I also know how to eat humble pie.

Hope I haven't offended anyone. It is, always, should be always, up to the person telling the story what story it is they want to tell.

Rivers


#20 User is offline   SunshineDaydream 

  • Group: Member
  • Posts: 273
  • Joined: 01-August 03

Posted 24 August 2003 - 10:11 AM

   For me, it has always depended on what "phase" I'm in that day.  Immediately after it happened I couldn't bring myself to say rape because it meant so many horrible things and I felt so guilty and people looked at me in that way that I am sure you all have come to know way to well.  In fact, others were the first ones to say it to me.  I think the first person who used that word was a guy.  For a very long time and even now when I'm really angry I called it "he f*ked me while I was sleeping"  I like the f word, it expresses anger and injustice and more anger and gets other people angry.   But I think it's so important for me to call it a "spade"  partly because when I don't say rape I'm being a victim, I'm avoiding the pain, and I'm trying to make it less than it is.
   Sometimes though, especially just these past few days which have been very triggering for me, I call it the day Geoff really hurt my feelings.  I know it's not right and Iknow it's making it less than it is, but I think it's becazuse I'm feeling horribly victimy right now and not survivorish at all.  So, as a result of my little ramble here, I am going to resolve to call it rape, all day, out loud.  It is important.

#21 User is offline   Rachel26 

  • Group: Member
  • Posts: 377
  • Joined: 24-April 03

Posted 08 June 2003 - 06:40 PM

I'm really tired so I don't know how this is going to come out, but here goes...
I also have trouble using the word 'rape' to describe my experience, because it makes me feel like a fraud, like what happened wasn't serious enough to warrant being called by such a serious name. Like Stefka, I feel I need confirmation by, and permission from, other people to use the word.
I am also very reluctant to say it because I think people will think I'm just being dramatic and looking for attention; I think that's related to the fact that I don't expect people to believe me, and also to popular perceptions of what rape is like: unshaven strangers in parks, with knives; violence; torn clothes etc. What happened to me was nothing like that so I have a hard time convincing myself that it was rape, let alone anyone else.
Rachel.

#22 Guest_Amy_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 09 June 2003 - 08:21 AM

Em,
I do think it matters.  I tend to the use the word "assault" to describe the "maybe rape" I can't quite recall, but that's for my own conscience's comfort.  I have no trouble calling the sexual abuse what it is, and it doesn't bother me to say that what my cousin did to me when I was five was incest.  If I can ever recall full details, then the assault will become rape.
Others have named reasons why the real words should be used, and I won't go into those -- they've already done a bang-up job.  But I will say that using euphemisms only gives power to the stigma surrounding survivors of rape -- why should we be ashamed or embarrassed to say a word?  Why should society be ashamed to hear it?  Call a spade a spade.
Or call it a fucking shovel, if you like.  But give it it's right name.
Love,
Amy

#23 Guest__*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 21 August 2003 - 06:42 PM

Wow.  Windandrain, you're totally right--that's exactly it!  One of the biggest obstacles in using "that word" is what it conjures up in the mind's eye, and when that image doesn't fit what happened, it ends up in a sense being worse to think about!  Your point about maintaining control over how your story is told/heard is beautiful, and so true.  It takes so much away from what we've been through to simply reduce it all down to a single sentence, doesn't it?

So, what does that mean?  Does that mean telling the whole story every time??  Is there ANY balance somewhere in the middle?

Thanks, windandrain, for a lovely, thought-provoking post.

:) Trisha


#24 User is offline   Lora 

  • Not just "what's left of" anymore
  • Group: Member
  • Posts: 3,216
  • Joined: 18-May 03

Posted 08 June 2003 - 10:54 AM

I agree with you.  Euphemisms are not only silencing but diminishing.  It allows both victims/survivors as well as those around them to skate over the ugliness and horror.  I FULLY understand why the person involved might not be ready to confront the real words and what lies beneath them, but it really pisses me off that even though *I* am able to say that I was raped at knifepoint by two men, some of the people around me still avoid using the word "rape" as if me hearing from their mouth instead of mine could make it worse or somehow they fear that its like a disease and they could "catch it" just by naming it.

Lora


#25 Guest__*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 08 June 2003 - 11:28 AM

I think we should use the words because it is what happenbed to us, however, its no use to us to make ourselves feel uncomfortable by using the words if we dont want to... i dont know if that makes sense.. but its all i could think of to add.

#26 User is offline   Stephanie 

  • View blog
  • Group: Contributing Member
  • Posts: 14,870
  • Joined: 24-February 03

Posted 08 June 2003 - 01:43 PM

When I wrote the the Rape Crisis Centre a few years back it was because I needed them to tell me if it was rape or not.  That was what I needed to know to get better.  They didn't - they sent back a generic letter to my personal one.  I think other ppl need a lot of help to feel that they can use the word rape.  It has been totally essential for me to be able to use the word rape and I couldn't have done it without other people saying that I was entitled to.  I think my concern with the approach they have at rape crisis is that it may reinfource people's doubts about what happened to them.  I know therapists have done this in the past by refering it to the incident or as unexpected sex.  I valued their opinions and belived that they would use the word rape if they thought that was what it was but as they didn't they must think it wasn't.

The way people won't talk about rape drives me crazy.  I have seen it at college with the play I am taking to schools on sexual violence.  Another group are doing one on child grief - everyone can say death and grief but no one refers to our group ever.  I had tutors tell me I shouldn't use the word rape in schools and that we should just do our play on relationships in general instead.  I fought them and fortuantly won but it wasn't easy.  My tutors called us the WOmen's group - they couldn't even say rape.  I feel a bit hypocritical because I find it hard to say too - in relation to myself anyway I do.  I am trying to change that as I figure that I can't expect others to talk about it if I won't.  Hopefully this play we are doing will help people to talk about issues around sexual violence more easily, but it is a small fish in a big pond.  I hate that people can talk about murder, cancer, death  - all these things -but not rape.  I do belive that it adds to the shame, the silence that surrounds rape.  Well I could go on about this all day as it is one of my pet hates but I will shut up for now! - Steph


#27 User is offline   Louise 

  • Kicking arsenic
  • View blog
  • Group: Administrator
  • Posts: 15,507
  • Joined: 15-November 01

Posted 08 June 2003 - 04:20 PM

Thankyou so much, my dear McEm, and the other wonderful respondents to this thread. I completely agree and am infact in the stages of editing a chapter on the recognition and naming of rape, so my mind has been largely preoccupied with just such thoughts as you people have written here.

As I am writing about partner rape, I've submitted that naming is a particularly important turning point, because the survivor of partner-rape so often feels as if she has no actual right to call her experiences rape.

By the same token, it is acknowledged that naming for her may be intensely painful because it is laden with many implications - not least that somebody she loved, or whom she may still love, has hurt her in this way - naming may throw up dilemmas or dictate actions that she feels ill-equipped to handle.

Her supporter/s will ideally walk with her through some of those painful implications in preparation for naming - exploring those implications might be hurdles that need to be jumped before naming can occur safely. The supporter, however, must be sensitive to the fact that she may be looking for validation that what happened to her was indeed rape, and not lessen it in any way.

There are many social institutions that do not infact want naming to occur - the survivor of partner-rape has been silenced by social institutions such as law and church. While euphemisms may appear to serve the survivor for a time because she fears naming, in the larger scheme, they also serve the interest of patriarchal authority, and of perpetrators themselves who know that there is great power in naming. Naming rape rebels against the status quo; it asks for justice and responsibility.

Okay honeys I'll take my feminist-writer hat off now.

Personally for me, naming was hard because of the stigma attached to the word rape; stigma which told me that is such a thing was done to me, there was something wrong not with the perpetrator who used such a vicious means of getting power over me, but with me.


I felt that being raped was the equivalent of somebody going to the toilet on me, and I felt that euphemisms, or trying to say I was raped without saying it in so many words, was a way to pretend to still have some dignity.

Of course, I ALWAYS had that dignity - I just didn't know it because society has for far too fucking long stigmatized and reviled people who have been raped, and I believe I had internalized this stigma. This stigmatizations silences rape victims, and it is bullshit.

I decided I could not and would not wait around for society to stop stigmatizing rape victims before I could name, because that wasn't going to happen. I knew I had to open my mouth and name; say 'he raped me' and know that the stigma, however prevalent, was not actually mine to bear. Overthrowing that stigma starts with our courage to name.

Quite possibly some of my lovely friends here have found, as I did, that saying "I was Raped" out loud makes it more "real"; it can bring the rape and all it's implications much closer. It often lets in feelings and memories that people often spend lots of time and energy pushing away. That's scary and might initially be disruptive, but it's my firm belief that there is always eventually rich empowerment in calling our experiences by their name.

There are no euphemisms that can adequately cover the pain of what we've been through.

To answer your title question, Emmie me mate; yes I do absolutely think it matters what we call our experiences. I've said in another thread that Holocaust survivors object to people saying six million people "died" or were "killed" in the Holocaust. Smoking "kills" People "die" in car accidents. These six million people were MURDERED. Giving it it's rightful name acknowledges that there was a human agent responsible for their deaths, and gives that responsibility to the perpetrators.

So too is it with rape - it is not a 'thing that happened', it is something actively caused by somebody else.

The power of the word rape, and it's stigma, is something we are a lot bigger than, my friends.

Naming hurts, but naming rocks too - I am not what he did to me. I will not be silenced again.

Whew! What a rant this turned into loves. For my friends afraid of naming, I strongly recommend a reading of Patricia Weaver Francisco's beautiful book "Telling".

The magnificent book "Transforming a Rape Culture" has a terrific contibution by Carol Adams on specifically naming' she tells us that:

"A problem inadequately named can not be adequately adressed" and that "Victims need to name their world so that they will stop being victims and become survivors". She says too, and many of us will know what she means, that "naming is the opposite of denial".


This will be as typo-ridden and woolly as #### because it's first thing in the morning, but these are my thoughts and thankyou, my friends, for yours.

Lou xxx


#28 User is offline   Mary 

  • MeowMary
  • Group: Contributing Member
  • Posts: 4,226
  • Joined: 05-January 03

Posted 09 June 2003 - 05:01 AM

in my own mind i call it rape. but i think it is the stigma that goes along with it that often prevents me from saying it out loud. i will usually call it 'the bad thing that happened at school'. those close to me know what i am talking about because i have used the word rape to discribe it with them before. but since it is hard to continuously say it i just refer to it as that.

i think i also do this to try and downplay it because i am tired of people worrying about me and expecting me to be a different person because of this


Mary


#29 User is offline   mithril 

  • little ghost
  • Group: Member
  • Posts: 1,277
  • Joined: 04-March 02

Posted 09 June 2003 - 07:56 AM

hmmm, great thread. *puts thinking cap on*

well, if i'm in a situation where there are other survivors, i will take their lead and call it whatever they call it. if somebody says to me, "i was raped" then i refer to it as such. i don't try and tip-toe around when i <i>know</i> the other person is comfortable with a term (insofar as one can be comfortable with such a word).

as for myself... well, i've never once said anything out loud, even to a mirror, about it. i don't know if i can (if i'm "allowed", as it were), because i don't know where i really fit. i don't want to use a term like 'rape' if i'm not 'entitled' to use it. if i was clear on this, then yeah for sure, i'd definately address it. i'd put it in it's place. but as it stands now, my mind says there's too much grey. so for now, i don't discuss it out loud, and here, well here is the one place i definately don't want to mis-name it (simply out of respect for everyone here; i don't want to just charge in and declare it rape when maybe it's not). so i guess i don't usually refer to it as anything. (reading back over this, i'd say i just call it <i>it</i> :) )

gee did i make any sense at all? :)

i didn't mean to turn this into such a ramble.

<i>How do you all feel about the real words: incest, rape, abuse etc.?</i>
i don't tend to engage in bullshit; if it's rape, it's rape. i will call it thus, if the other person is comfortable with it (i don't want to run about the place applying my own concepts and terms to other peoples experiences). but i suppose that's fairly hypocritical of me, considering i do pull some bullshit with myself.

i'm going around in circles here, i'll stop now :)

luv'n'hugs,
mithril


#30 User is offline   kiwi 

  • Group: Member
  • Posts: 1,805
  • Joined: 30-March 03

Posted 10 June 2003 - 01:44 AM

I have only used the word r*pe once out loud, other people eg mum,dad and my counsellor use the 'real' word. But i still refer to it as either 'it' or 'what happened'. Sometimes i wish that i could use the real word, but i find when it is used i almost always get a visual in my head, and obviously i don't want to see that visual, i don't know if any-one else gets this.
I have many times wanted to say 'please don't say that word' but something has stopped me, whether it be, that i believe that 'they' need to use it for their own good or whatever.

To sum up, i don't belive that useing the real word is appropriate in some circumstances or when the victim his/herself doesn't use it.


Share this topic:


  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic


Pandora's Aquarium, Inc. is not intended to be a substitute for professional assistance. All members and visitors are encouraged to establish a relationship with a trained counselor, therapist, or psychiatrist. Pandora's Aquarium, Inc. offers rape and sexual abuse survivor-to-survivor support only. Despite any qualifications staff or members possess, they are not engaged in a professional relationship with any other member. Survivors in crisis are urged to seek local help by contacting 911 or their local rape crisis center. Use of this website constitutes acceptance of the Terms of Service located here.